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12:16 AM
0
Q: What are we doing?

PurmouWhat are we doing? These past few days have not been the best for Stack Overflow, Meta, or Stack Exchange in general. We have seen some conflicts and lots of disagreements. We have, for lack of a better word, something of a civil war going on right now. It's a disappointing time, and there's no...

lol
a minute has passed and I have a downvote
 
12:33 AM
Humph why is "Attribute pubdate not allowed on element time at this point"? :(
 
@animuson whuh?
 
@Purmou: **Attribute pubdate not allowed on element time at this point.**
`… <time datetime="2012-01-14T00:53Z" pubdate>January 14, 2012 12:53am</time>`
 
no idea what that is
 
Ok, don't run through mini-Markdown, whatever...
The new <time> element in HTML5...
 
oh
only new elements i know are article, section, hgroup, header, and nav lol
and canvas
 
12:48 AM
@Purmou got my upvote
 
@animuson That's because they're considering dropping it, I'd suspect.
 
@NormanRamsey thanks for the answer. i think people just don't want to discuss this kind of thing so they downvote it instead. if people just shy this kind of discussion away then we're in for a lot more than small conflict
 
1:21 AM
well, i'm done
seems people are a bit too fucking stupid to be open and rational about a decent discussion
so i think i've spent enough time on this network
 
Anonymous
I think you're making things out to be worse than they are.
 
Anonymous
I actually feel very good about the recent state of meta.
 
Anonymous
It's heated, but it feels more likely to produce change.
 
Anonymous
Things hadn't been moving very fast.
 
Anonymous
Some people acting silly, yeah. But overall I don't think it's bad.
 
1:25 AM
I'm getting tired of the discussion. I agree that the content should still be visible, but they should not get reputation for it since the content is not in the scope of the site anymore.
 
Anonymous
@animuson archive.stackexchange.com with 302 redirects problem solved. ;P
 
this has happened to me a few times on meta
i try to get a rational discussion started
some idiot high-rep users blast in and go "what are you on about?"
as if they have no goddamned clue what i'm talking about
and they proceed to tell me i have no idea what i'm talking about, or that they have more of one
most of these users are cocky off their asses, thinking they're kings of SE or some shit
i have a deleted post
and i flagged it to be deleted
here was my reason:
"Just delete this. It's very embarrassing for your high rep users to be so hypocritical and completely narrow minded about this situation. And the down votes on this question don't reflect any of the reasons listed in the FAQ--I don't think you can disagree with 'the nature of a discussion.' Thank you."
I wrote this in January.
It still stands
 
Anonymous
@Purmou You're overreacting. A few users may be assholes, but that's not why your post was downvoted. It's very over-the-top and most people disagree with your assessment.
 
Anonymous
There are some users that are arrogant towards lower-rep users
 
my question wasn't deleted, i was just relating it
 
Anonymous
1:34 AM
err
 
Anonymous
Pardon, I meant downvoted.
 
and is 2100 considered low-rep?
 
Anonymous
No, I'm talking about something else, I guess.
 
@Purmou - your post has 12 upvotes - I wouldn't take it so hard
 
i don't mind the votes.
i'm more concerned with the fact that people are still doing what I make clear in my post I want to stop
 
1:42 AM
I think I'll just take a week off from meta and see what happens... I'm tired of reading the same arguments over and over with no conclusions. Pretty much every question is now about deleted questions and reputations.
 
this whole site's in ruins
high-rep users flaunt their rep in people's faces like they know forty times better than they do about everything.
there is a civil war going on, which people still seem to doubt.
 
Anonymous
@Purmou Your great big post should include some examples if you're going to keep asserting this.
 
Nah, this is just a handful of users in a turf war with one another. :P
 
I don't think the whole site's in ruins, but I'm sick of people anal retentively trying to purge every single old post that doesn't meet current standards
 
Anonymous
I know some users do this but it's not everywhere.
 
1:43 AM
@JeremyBanks I seem to be a target of this all the time
 
I'm going to stay in the safety of my rchern-proof bunker and not get involved, heh.
 
you know Raynos? Or teresko?
 
I know I'm guilty of what you bemoan in your post, but I feel passionately about historical, good content not being killed off
Hahaha- Raynos is quite a character
 
@TimStone: May I join you? I'm very organized and quiet,you'll barely notice me there in the corner. :P
 
don't EVER get into an argument with him -- EVER
 
Anonymous
1:44 AM
I remember him being wrong once, while I was right. I can't remember the details.
 
@animuson If you bring food.
 
5
Q: Insults and boorish behavior in chat

PurmouI've been participating in the SO chats for some time now, primarily to improve my coding in a more active community. Some of the users in chat act very boorish towards me when my code isn't exactly up to standards. I'm talking about outright insults. There are a few specific people that make st...

earlier, in the bin room on SO, i saw more of teresko's messages
 
Anonymous
I think chat's a bit of a failure.
 
he is consistently rude to people
including myself, on multiple occasions, in two different rooms
phwd just posted a comment on my question like he knows what's up
 
Anonymous
I bet lots of the SE team regrets how chat has turned out.
 
1:45 AM
god, it just upsets me that people take themselves too seriously on this site
they think rep is a magical indicator of how epic you are
and they think that cause they have high rep, they can get away with dumb crap like posting stupid comments and being mean to low-rep users and users that don't know what they're talking about
high rep users think they know this site like the back of their hand, and they think nobody else does
they have this little cult of people that they think are cool
and boy, i wonder how hard it is to get in.
you either have to be a mod or somehow pass their "cool" test
and this group of people (which is huge) thinks there is so much to know about this site
well, there isn't
and i know quite a bit, and it's enough for me to get by
so they better get rid of their holier than thou attitudes and get real about this
 
Anonymous
Okay.
 
because the system that apparently works--all this reputation crap, this closing, locking, deleting, voting BS--is just an extreme failure. look where it's taken us
 
Anonymous
It hasn't taken most of us anywhere.
 
Anonymous
You're extrapolating wildly from some bad users.
 
Anonymous
and any high-rep arrogance has very little to do with the current state of affairs on meta
 
1:49 AM
mods post snarky comments everywhere like they're the coolest kids on the block
it has much to do with it
gilles only got away with that post that showed his disagreement with a mod's actions cause he's a high-rep, repsected user
 
@JeremyBanks Why's that?
 
this is such a corrupted community at the heart of it
 
Anonymous
@TimStone That's me exaggerating, but the state of moderation across chat is very inconsistent and it bothers me.
 
Ah, yes...
 
Anonymous
It's sort of by-design but I don't like it.
 
1:52 AM
I think the community in general is good, but deleting old popular content makes people go crazy, especially me
 
Anonymous
@Purmou That's sort-of true.
 
@Tim - as a mod, do you know if Shog is going to put his foot down anytime soon and drop an official policy on this content?
 
I'm actually not @TimPost, so no diamond here. ;)
 
Anonymous
but the fact that high-rep users also understand how to make posts that won't get downvoted is a huge factor.
 
Whoops - sorry about that @Tim :)
 
1:54 AM
But that aside, I'm not aware of anything myself, but we can prod @Shog9.
Heheh, not a problem, people do that all the time. :)
 
@JeremyBanks it is true, and you know it. that post has more downvotes than up, and it has 30 upvotes
if anything that says something about the quality/nature of the discussion he's trying to bring up
oh, and just wait till somebody tries to question whether certain things work on the site or not
 
Anonymous
What post are you talking about?
 
yes
 
@Purmou - I think the vote breakdown just reflects peoples' opinions on the subject of old content deletion
 
1:57 AM
*sigh*
@AdamRackis it does
 
In fact, I think this particular issue if the exception that proves the rule. All other issues seem to be handled quote well - this issue sticks out like a sore thumb
 
do none of you really see this? =/
 
see what specifically ?
 
the corruption in this entire system
it gets to peoples' heads
people take themselves way too seriously
cause of their rep, if they're a mod, etc
and then they just shun everything they don't agree with
 
Anonymous
This is people.
 
1:58 AM
like almighty gods of power
he says everything with this confidence and sureness that he's absolutely right and nothing he says could ever be wrong
 
@JeremyBanks Indeed, this has little to do with the system and everything to do with how some people behave. shrugs
...As well as how people interpret the actions of others.
 
all right
you win, once again
and you is not you specifically, @JeremyBanks
 
Anonymous
@Purmou phwd is atypical.
 
I'd agree with @Tim (Stone, not Post)
Look at plenty, plenty of other high rep users
Pekka immediately comes to mind
 
he's awesome
 
Anonymous
2:01 AM
<3
 
Shog (before he was in charge) - amazing content always from him
Rebecca Churnoff (sp??0
I think most high-rep users are quite congenial -- Raynos and phwd are atypical, like @Jeremy said
 
so why don't we do anything about them?
 
And even Matthew Reed - I've never had any problem ever with him - another great guy
 
they destroy the quality of the site and the community more than bad questions
do we not ban them because they are almighty high rep users?
idunno
but we have no problem banning a user with 1 rep who posted a question that got downvoted quite a bit
 
You can't just ban people for being a dick sometimes
that would scare many others away
 
2:03 AM
it scared me away without happening
i'm tired of the hypocritical nature of a lot of people on the sites
 
besides, I seldom ever see phwd contribute to meta. The site is dominated by all the other users—the Pekkas, the Rebeccas, etc
 
hypocritical, offensive, holier-than-thou users are pretty much all i ever see
maybe cause i'm looking for them? i don't know
but it's annoying
why did they need rep? why did they need mods? cause they saw potential in a system and let it grow
i think that was a mistake in itself
stack overflow would be much more successful, i think, without reputation or moderators
stack exchange would be much more successful without 84 sites and one to propose more
people come with an attitude like they know everything about these sites, in and out
congrats to them if they do
 
Anonymous
That doesn't scale without the quality going to crap.
 
Anonymous
It's not about this site in particular.
 
Anonymous
It's about the history of large online communities.
 
2:06 AM
okay
people keep arguing the history, which i don't know
 
Anonymous
Stack Overflow's model isn't perfect, but it scales decently.
 
why don't they make it more accessible? i'd love to know the history of the site
all i know is, joel and jeff were like "dude let's make a q&a site"
they made it, had contests for names and logos
 
Anonymous
I somewhat agree with that. The user-maintained changelog is silly.
 
got lucky that it became successful and built a company out of it
 
Anonymous
but the podcasts document a lot more than you can find out about most sites.
 
2:07 AM
why can't it just stay that simple?
meta and area51 and the more than 80 sites on the network right now is what's driving me to say this stuff right now
 
Btw, thanks for cleaning up Career Development, @Jeremy :-)
 
Anonymous
I think it's unfortunate they didn't keep doing the podcast transcripts. They provided a reference for a lot of decisions.
 
@Purmou - what's the problem with the high number of SE sites? Why is that a problem?
 
Anonymous
@AdamRackis As an antideletionist, I now get to feel bad about the few that were deleted. ;)
 
well, for one, questions that belong on other sites get posted on sites they don't belong on
does anyone else notice how the criteria for good and bad questions is completely variable?
one moment it's this, one moment it's that
what ever put anyone in the position to judge a good question?
"how's the weather" is a damn good question
 
Anonymous
2:10 AM
@Purmou Months/years of argument on meta.
 
@Jeremy - as an who's not an asshole like I am, do you have any understanding of the other side?
What motivates someone to kill content that makes others happy, that's locked and out of the way
 
Anonymous
@AdamRackis It's not entirely out-of-the-way. It still dominates the top question lists, and some show up highly in Google.
 
Ahh - I guess I never look at the top questions list
Still though, an easy thing to fix, like your suggestion, @Jeremy
 
Anonymous
Well, I agree. :P
 
2:12 AM
man, i wanna explode sometimes
for me it's not just a few assholes, @JeremyBanks
 
@Purmou - some of the SE sites have been a bit fragmented (not sure what value CodeReview brings...), but overall I like the niche sites
 
most of the people i seem to attract are assholes
 
@Jeremy, still though, the argument I hear from the other side isn't "hey, these questions are filling the top questions page" it's "This trash needs to go now!"
 
Anonymous
The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that monitoring and maintaining urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime. The theory was introduced in a 1982 article by social scientists James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling. Since then it has been subject to great debate both within the social sciences and in the public sphere. The theory has been used as a motivation for seve...
 
@Jeremy - I'm from NY - I know all about Broken Windows :)
I'm convinced this argument is bunk in this case
 
Anonymous
2:16 AM
I'm unsure.
 
When my SO addiction was in full swing, I was watching the new questions feed for a few months straight - the crap I saw coming in was not weirdest JavaScript feature, it was Show me deh codez
 
The other part of the problem with keeping old list type questions is the amount of maintenance they need
@AdamRackis That I agree with
Also, the amount of laziness and lack of research
 
Anonymous
@AdamRackis Good point.
 
@YiJiang - absolutely -- that too -- but what sort of maintenance do you mean?
 
Although before the deleting and the new homepage sorting happened I do see "hidden feature of x" on my homepage feed every few days
 
2:20 AM
@YiLang - I suspect that was when the questions were still open, and could be changed? Thereby causing a bump?
 
@AdamRackis List question gets new answers every few days. If the new answer is rubbish you'd need a mod to delete it, if it's good, well... nobody would see the new answer because it's on page 10 or something
@AdamRackis Yeah, they're bumped pretty frequently
 
sooooo does anyone agree that the community is corrupted to some extent?
 
@YiLang - for sure. I definitely think these need to be closed and locked - I just want the old content to not be deleted
@Purmou - humanity is corrupted to some degree - no community will ever be able to escape that
 
I think the quality problem on SO is bigger. Looking through the list of questions on the homepage by the title alone I feel compiled to edit every one of them
 
And I think SO does far, far better than most communities anywhere
 
2:21 AM
@AdamRackis I'd appreciate it if you could not misspell my name :P (Use autocomplete!)
 
@YiLang - Ha! SO is not the place to be if you have a low tolerance of poor grammar :-)
 
Anonymous
@Purmou "Corrupted" is a weird way too but it. There are some dicks and the community is subject to some of the dumb social forces that most communities are, but overall it's not bad.
 
The neat thing about SO is that the good stuff tends to rise to the top, and the mediocre stuff from India tends to languish
 
Anonymous
Jesus I can't type.
 
you don't think that meta is, at all, a haven for arrogance?
 
2:24 AM
@Purmou - if an alien visitor came to meta today for the first time, they might be horrified, but otherwise, normally, I think Meta is quite, quite good
 
Anonymous
I don't know what it means to be a haven for arrogance at all.
 
@AdamRackis then i just have bad luck
 
@JamesMcNellis - I loved your tweet - just saw it for the first time after sbi posted it
Speaking of which, @Purmou - here's a good example of a very low-rep user getting a good reception meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/124366/…
I don't think the rep-bias is as bad as you say
 
okay, sure, maybe it's not
i still feel it's a problem.
 
@Anna - I repeat my question to you, that I misdirected to a misidentified Tim -- as an employee, do you know if Shog or someone will finally put their foot down with an official policy on old, popular content
this shiz is taking up a lot of bandwidth on Meta, and I'm obviously no less guilty than anyone else
 
2:30 AM
Yeah! How am I supposed to post pedantic bug reports with all this kerfluffling going on? ;)
 
@Tim - yeah, like pluralization bugs :-D
 
Exactly!
 
Silence will only breed speculation, @Anna :)
 
maybe she's reading? :P
 
HA!!! I read more than most, and I promise you, I'm not on chat when I am :)
 
2:33 AM
@AdamRackis Err. You asked me that before?
 
no no
I asked that to @Tim, who I thought was a different Tim
 
Ahh :)
 
For some reason I assumed all Tims were moderators :-O
 
Even worse, not all moderators are Tims. ;)
 
2:34 AM
Feb 25 at 3:15, by Tim Stone
It's OK @YiJiang, I get confused for Tim Post all the time. People also tend to think I'm an employee. Clearly I'm a master of disguises.
 
When I think of Tims, two words come to mind.
 
I'm available for all sorts of infiltration and espionage purposes, for the right price.
 
A GRRRRRRRAIL?
 
To answer your question, there haven't been any capital-D Decisions that I'm aware of. Ideally the community can come to a resolution. We're also considering some engine changes to allow more options beyond "keep or delete", but nothing's solidified yet.
 
More engine options would go a long way
 
2:36 AM
@AnnaLear exactly--ideally :P
 
And clearly on this issue the community cannot come to a resolution. There are simply conflicting ideologies at play
 
hence my wall of text
 
@mootinator :D
 
There's been a lot of things happening in a short period of time. This issue simply came to a head with deletions being more visible and tangible than they used to be. It'll take time to work things out and even we can't just fix it overnight. :)
Think of it this way - even if we were to put a proverbial foot down, meta would still be flooded with posts by people who disagree with whatever decision we'd make. :P
 
@Anna - people might flood meta, but arguments would be over a lot quicker
I'd love to see Shog come out and say "Soon we'll have some engine changes to handle this stuff better, but for now leave this shit alone—it's staying" or however he'd word it :)
btw, @Anna, do you know why these recent questions were un-deleted by SE employees?
 
2:43 AM
Heh; WTB comment one-box.
@AdamRackis In a nutshell, we felt those questions did make the Internet better.
 
@Anna - thank you, and I agree
The coolest part of hitting 10K was going to the deleted poplar questions page and gorging on programmer jokes
if (launchMissiles = true)
launchMissiles();


hehehehe
Hey @Anna - how's literature.SE going???
 
@AdamRackis It seems pretty slow, but I haven't really been there much since I resigned as a pro-tem.
 
Well I hope they work out well
 
 
2 hours later…
4:38 AM
yo
 
dah
 
♫ go to dagobah ♫
♫ go to dagobah ♫
 
Anonymous
Luke!
 
now i want to watch that again
 
Is that a thing?
 
4:41 AM
yes
 
heh
 
4:58 AM
 
 
1 hour later…
6:05 AM
hey guys!
I'm Playing around with data explorer on this fine sunday morn
 
 
5 hours later…
11:00 AM
If I hit F5 on stackoverflow.com/questions/9554301/… it seems to be totally random if the element containing the stack trace starts at the top or the bottom. Is that ?
 
you mean it's scrolled to the bottom sometimes, and sometimes it's not?
 
@balpha exactly - sometimes bottom, sometimes top
looked 50-50 from my experiment but there weren't enough repetitions to be sure
 
sounds like something you'd have to ask your browser vendor
 
Ah I assumed there was some JavaScript trying to set it to one or the other
 
no, we don't do anything with these scroll positions. That's either some extension/user script you're running, or weird browser behavior
 
11:04 AM
afaik I have no extensions/user scripts on this browser (FF 7.0.1/Windows 7) - that's really weird behaviour on the browser vendor's side then
 
11:18 AM
@balpha :( When I click "Apply With Careers" And put in my cover letter, I select the link edit button and I cannot add a link
All the fun links I planned to put! I cannot :(
 
Sorry, can't really help you there.
 
Any ideas.
 
But I'll let the Carreers guys know
 
Any ideas though. Or maybe I should just forget the links
?
(Planned to link to an SO post and my data explorer account
 
FWIW, I'm reproing that
but there really isn't much I can do for you
I don't work on careers
 
11:28 AM
ah alright Thanks @balpha
 
I've pinged the careers people though
 
Just dunno if I should just place the links on the bottom or something then.
 
11:39 AM
@balpha workaround : I added the links into the text on MS Word, then copy pasted it into the careers box and it looks like the links got copied.
:)
 
 
1 hour later…
1:05 PM
ah, so they finally closed my question
two reopen votes already--i'm off to a good start
 
1:26 PM
here we go
-8
Q: What are we doing?

Purmou EDIT: Since this post seems to be getting some negative attention (and since I'd like it reopened), I'm going to give some more of my own input. This question does not just focus on the events that have transpired in the past several days. Yes, while I use these to make my point, that is ...

new and improved
for anyone that wants it
 
 
2 hours later…
3:26 PM
What does it cost to advert on StackExchange?
 
Anonymous
3:37 PM
26
Q: Who are the diamond moderators, and what is their role?

bemaceSome people have a diamond after their username (ex: Jeff Atwood♦) What special privileges do diamond moderators have? How can I become a diamond moderator? Who are the diamond moderators? How many are there? Return to FAQ index

 
Anonymous
The description of the election process is pre-/election. Going AFK so I can't edit it now; I will later or somebody else can.
 
5:33 PM
@Moshe email ads@ or call the number here
 
Ello people, Where can I find @Jin?
 
Jin
@Gigili you rang?
 
Yes, I did. Have a minute @Jin?
 
Jin
@Gigili sure
 
I asked a question on graphic design and haven't got any response yet. Can you help me out of it? I have to finish a project by tomorrow, that's why.
0
Q: Bright spots while rendering

GigiliMy problem is that I have bright spots caused by reflection parameters of the material of an object and I don't know where they come from. It is not so obvious in this image but stil visible (in the rectangle). There are bright dots on the surface, it seem to be the material reflection. It appe...

 
user image
7
My new philosophy
 
6:12 PM
yo
 
 
1 hour later…
7:14 PM
My seasonal app is going to be in season in a few weeks.
And I think I just found a serious bug.
 
7:24 PM
 
Anonymous
O.O
 
Anonymous
Stack.Ars
 
Indeed
 
Anonymous
Was the other blog that had a Stack post also with Condé Nast? I think it was..
 
7:40 PM
@JeremyBanks Thanks for the up vote meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/121287/… then I am here
19
Q: Would it be better to have voting counts open on meta?

moguzalpDown voting or up voting is very clear on Stack Overflow. But in some questions on meta it's very confusing (to me). For example, this question: OP asks a very interesting question, then gets some up votes, and as what he is asking or attempting is not "good", gets down votes This kind of ...

 
 
3 hours later…
11:04 PM
Bug fixed. Update submitted. Disaster averted.
 
Anonymous
8
A: Zero account in profile?

Nick CraverThere are no accounts anymore. Meta's been a bit too uppity the past few days and we decided to end the network, sorry!

 

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